kourtney
Kourtney is a community organizer currently located out of Albuquerque, NM on Tewa and Tiwa land.
"the youth are like the whole reason we do this work. Right?"
Jaiden: What is the role of young people in movement work?
Kourtney: Hmm, I think that young people bring a lot of instantaneous energy into movement work, I think especially like if you had been organizing anytime before this summer, and then when George Floyd was murdered, like how quickly the youth had so much energy. It was like - I feel like there's a word for it - it was just very quick and it was like burstful and vibrant and fresh I feel like, uhm especially for the Black lives Matter movement, especially, which was at-at that point already almost a decade hold but hadn't really seen that type of energy. For me it’s always definitely very physically like spirited energy that they bring to the movement. But also a lot of pretty emergent ideas and also I would say a different set of skills too, so like, as a millennial, something that I noticed this summer is that this younger generation, they knew how to use social media in a way that I'd never really seen before. And I guess like that's also mixed with, you know, the fact that we're in a pandemic and we don't really have much of a choice, but also I just think that the youth just have like a lot more like technical skills than a lot of the elders do, and it’s not to say that one is better than the other, but it’s definitely a great tool to add to the work being done.
I also - like the youth are like the whole reason we do this work. Right? Like if it wasn't for the youth, there would be literally no point. Right? 'Cause we're not going to see liberation. Uhm, so, which is like a sad thing. But I feel like doing this work for youth and with youth, uhm, it kind of helps ground you and center your work in more long term, sustainable, just like slow conscious, thoughtful work that takes time. It's not exactly reactive work. So if you're thinking about work, I feel like you're doing intentional work because you know that this is probably going to be for several generations beyond yourself. So I feel like youth are just like - they're like the frame of which we should be looking at our future through. I think that's - that's the best for me.
Jaiden: God Damn. That was so like poetic. Like that hit my soul. I loved everything you had to say. Uhm, a lot of it is very true. I feel like, when I think of the youth, they're very just ready and kinda just down to get organized.
Kourtney: Exactly, and they be making art too.
Lyrica: Our next question is, let's see, what do you wish you had known before getting politically involved?
Kourtney: I wish I had known that this work is allowed to be slow and thoughtful, uh 'cause I think that especially when you are young and you don't yet know that you're not going to live to see liberation, everything is so urgent, and it's so reactive, and it’s so like, we have to do this right now, and it's just like, it's-it's unending, right? It feels like you have to give your attention to every single thing that is going wrong in the world, uh which obviously, like, in the long run for anybody, actually in the short run too, it just leads to like an incredible amount of burnout. Uhm, so sometimes I wish that when I was younger I had been told by people who were older doing this work that it's ok to like stop, and like pause, and like take a breath, and to actually figure out what it is- like one specific thing you want to focus on, and like funnel your energy into instead of, kind of like having a triggered reaction to everything that happens, by the time I got to college and started doing more like direct action, and like anti-police work, it just felt like, especially because that was like during the era of Trayvon Martin, and like, Mike Brown, and Tamir Rice, and Ricky Oboid, that's like the era of when I really started getting hardcore about it, and it was like-it was like nonstop. Like, you know, Black people are being killed like every couple of hours. And like, ingesting all of that, you know, all the time because of social media. Or, during that time too, that's when people started filming it all the time too and like sharing it everywhere. You know, that 2013 to 2016 era was really traumatizing and it felt like we had to have a knee jerk reaction every time it happened. So then all we would end up doing is like getting into streets like every other week - exhausting ourselves, exhausting our resources, and also like putting ourselves front and center in a way that we didn't realize at the time was super dangerous. Till later it ended up becoming very much like uh, you get to a point where you get centered and uh you know, everybody's watching you and it's not just police, it's also like the people in your community, or in your school, or even people you think you trust. So I guess, I just wish that there were more like elders involved when I first got into it and I wish they-I wish that they had been able to be there to be like-you know really be strategic about the moves you make, you know? Instead of just - cause like, this work is always gonna be here, you know? It doesn't matter if you pause, it's not going anywhere, unfortunately. As sad as that sounds.
Jaiden: Ok-so the next question is what advice would you give to young organizers in college or to young organizers thinking about going to college?
Kourtney: Definitely. Yeah, that's where I really started, and I think a lot of people who haven't organized at the university, the first thing they'll tell you is that like you can't do radical organizing there because you're like within the Ivory towers, but that's literally not true because we're like - we’re in the ivory towers like just by being on this fucking planet. So it's just like, that type of logic really doesn't make sense, and it also it totally erases like all the Queer, Trans, Black, Indigenous people who go to college who are like first gen and like totally navigating this shit by themselves who have-honestly, sometimes more radical politics than people in the community. That's how it felt for a long time for me here. So I think that my best advice would be to one: don't listen to people who are like, you can't organize in university, that's like privileged organizing. It's like no, 'cause we all deserve education, and it's like, at this point, that's what we have, like that's the access - we don't see education happening in a lot of other ways, uh, except more traditional things you know who are growing up with their families back on the Rez - that's important education. But I would say definitely do it if you can, but also it's definitely important to keep in mind that it will be really draining, and you will definitely be very very centered-uhm, it was-honestly like some of the scariest organizing I did was at the university.
I guess another piece of advice would be to not, like let go of your politics. Uh, so I would say, stick with whatever avenues you feel like make your soul feel best in your work. 'Cause it's really easy to be the one person in a group of 20 who is like, you know, your ideas are too intense or too dramatic, or radical. You know, it's really easy to get just shut down. But I feel like ultimately, just like staying true to your politics and being very weary of co-optation, uhm things get super co-opted at the university, and it-and it's not just by other student organizations, it's also by the university itself - uhm, so for example, in like 2012 and 2013, we had been pressing for like gender neutral bathrooms and of course the administration made us feel like crazy, people made us feel crazy. Like we were always being threatened with suspension you know, two years later, the university is the first one in the state to have gender neutral bathrooms, and how big of a win this is for the leadership, and it's like, bruh, this is like 6 students like putting themselves on the line and failing their classes to press for this. So you will never get credit for anything- it's so sad. I think co-optation is probably the worst thing that happens at a university.
I feel like there's just so many lessons for college students. It's just like, take care of yourself first. Your mental health matters more than anything. Also take care of each other. I feel like, you know, just taking care of yourself and being weary of co-optation, and being true to your politics. I don't know - I, now that I'm so much older I feel like the most important thing is really just figuring out how to continue to heal and be able to learn how to emotionally regulate and things like that. Like learning more of that like skillset. 'Cause all of us were really good at protesting, but none of us knew how- we didn't have the skills to take care of our mental health. Like, we didn't even know - self care wasn't even a word at that point [laughs] uhm, we didn't know how to do anything like that and it's honestly the most important thing, for like long-term, sustainable change. It's just, prioritize yourself, and your loved ones, and your community.
Jaiden: I love that. Thank you for that, that was amazing.
Lyrica: Yeah, thank you Kourtney, so much. How are you careful to not implement the systems you're fighting against in your own work?
Kourtney: I think this is the one that is probably the hardest for me and for everybody, because you know we come into this with so much anger towards like all these issues but we don't really ever see ourselves in those shoes, especially as like a mixed white person who looks entirely like a settler, I feel like I have to be very, very careful like, I mean, one: just acknowledging my proximity to whiteness at all times, and just recognizing like the way that I have experienced violence is always going to be different than my brown and Black peers do. I think that's definitely part of it for me, and I feel like something that is, I've like maybe come into in the last four or five years is just being like, ok I've really gotta check myself, you know. 'Cause it's really easy for me to get centered in movement work, even if I don't want to because people will just listen to the white person. Uhm, so I have to be very careful about certain people that want my attention, or doing interviews, like stuff like that - I try not to do interviews too often of things where my face will be on TV. I try to give those opportunities away if I can or-especially if they're white-led interviews too because they definitely try to like yeah, twist things around.
Uhm I think another aspect of it too is mental health and just yeah, general healing. I don't wanna like perpetuate that like new-age type of healing, but I think a lot of people who are doing movement work have some type of trauma in some way and we live in white supremacy, it's like - there's no way you don't. I think it's really important for me to always be like, trying to acknowledge that, like acknowledging where a lot of my pain comes from and my anger and my rage and I think there's a lot of power in it, like I can us that stuff as a tool, I guess. But sometimes I can use it in an abusive way, right? So I think for some folks who do have trauma with whatever that is like sexual trauma, or physical trauma, or just racial trauma, colonization, anything, you just need to be really careful about like deciphering between like, am I using like the energy that I have to fight these systems like against these systems, or am I also weaponizing in my own community? Uhm, so I think that's something that I'm always trying to stay conscious of and like always trying to work on it and also just looking this way and being perceived this way granting me more access to spaces that are healing, so like taking advantage of that and like actually healing and like dealing with that shit is super important to me, and is really hard too.?
"autonomy is like respecting other people's autonomy"
Lyrica: So we have two more questions. The next one is, what does autonomy mean to you?
Kourtney: I love autonomy, I love that word, I love that it's a thing that we can like indulge in and practice. Uhm, autonomy to me is-is very similar to like self-determination. Uhm, just having the right to-I wouldn't say do as you please, but kind of like to-to live like how you want, live as long as you're not causing people harm or abuse or violence, you know. Uhm, but autonomy to me is-and I don’t even think that in this lifetime we'll ever get to feel what it truly means to be autonomous. Right, 'cause it's like, we still gotta show up to work, we still gotta do all of these things to survive that truly aren't autonomous things that we do. So, I guess it's like, autonomy is kinda like a horizon, right, it's something you're always trying to move toward. It's something you're always looking forward- you're always trying to get to that point even if you can’t necessarily embody it at times, it’s something that you're trying to embody. It's kind of like, uhm, yeah like, you know you can't make a specific kind of future happen if you're not trying to embody it in the future, you know, but also yeah, just trying to understand that that’s not always possible, I also like-I think autonomy is super tied to, like I said, self determination and part of autonomy is like respecting other people's autonomy, is like, especially, especially centering the autonomy of like Native people whose land you're on and that's self determination for them to do as they please, uhm no matter how you see their politics aligning with your own.
And I think a lot of people are still having a hard time letting go of that need to control everyone, and that need to make sure everybody is politically aligned, and I-yeah, I think that's another aspect of it too. There's a lot of infighting on the left, which is like good actually, I think 'cause it's like people shouldn't all agree, I think there's a lot of danger in like people all having the exact same opinions or like everyone identifying as an anarchist if that's how they feel, like to me that's really toxic like authoritarianism uhm, and it's like stripping people of autonomy. I would like to see more like conversations of what that is. I think I have a lot more-I have a lot more understanding that needs to be built up here, you know, in like a theoretical sense, but also in like an individual sense too. 'Cause I don't, you know, I love autonomy, but here I am working like 40 hours a week, you know, that's not autonomous at all.
Lyrica: [laughs] No. Yeah, I feel like- something I think about a lot is how in our lives, like when we're young children, we're very much under the authority of like our parents, and then it's like our teachers who we are under the authority of, and then it's like our bosses, and then it's like, at what point do we gain-like regain control of our lives, even in like a daily sense, like thinking about how like your boss in a traditional way like decides when you get to be like at home with your family, sometimes when you get to go to the bathroom, even like when you get to eat, and I'm like, this is so messed up, and also something I think that we’re so ingrained to just like accept that we’re never going to have control of our lives. .
Kourtney: It's kind of scary like how deep we are in-like we're so far in. When you say, like our bosses control when we go to the bathroom. Like yeah, we have to ask permission to do everything, and we’re mostly denied.
Lyrica: Mmm. Jaiden, do you want to take the nex-the last question?
Jaiden: The last question is how can we organize in a way that doesn't mirror hierarchical structures?
Kourtney: Mm. That's hard. That's such a hard question, I feel like even in community settings where that's what we're trying to practice, there's always like people who end up becoming leaders. I don't necessarily think that we shouldn't have leaders, but I feel like it's a really loaded role, and there's just always people who kind of rise up and like take that position of kind of having authority over people, even in groups of people who are really really woke as hell, I think that hierarchy is just-like not natural but we're so socialized that it comes out in really subtle ways that we don't really notice it. Uh, I think there's a couple steps. I think that one is that people have to stop trying to get credit for everything that they do. Just within our communities, I feel like people are really like thirsty for credit and attention for that work, and I-I do identify as an anarchist, and like something that I think is an important value of anarchy is that we do things anonymously, and I think that's a really good way to try to like deplete hierarchy, at least externally. Like people won't view hierarchy if people are actually doing things anonymously, and not trying to get cookies or clout for it, wow, this culture now, is-it's really hard because wow, it's so easy to get clout for organizing now because social movement is becoming more mainstream which is really weird to say, like people are being followed which is good for education purposes, but it's like, there's like a couple of figureheads that have kind of like, just a little bit too much influence in my opinion and people go to them to like ask permission for things, uhm almost like look at them in a way that they have to get approval for stuff, and I'm just like that's not how this works, like if you want something to happen in your community then you just need to do it. Obviously with respect to the Indigenous peoples who are in community with you. I don't know, I think people need to stop trying to get clout. People need to de-platform. That's the word. I think social media education and movement work online is important, its also super accessible for a lot of disabled people, I think it's super important, but also I think that we end up just like pedestaling people and we look at people almost like as celebrities, even though that's like the culture we're supposed to be dismantling, and it's super damaging for everybody too, I think the answer is anonymity, I don't see a lot of people practicing that. I see a lot of people being like, I don't know like, look what I did. And I think it's important to celebrate each other, you know, to uplift each other, I do think that’s important. But I also just - I do think that the ability to become an influencer, it really distorts peoples intentions, like why are you here? You know, you shouldn't be like doing wild things for attention, uhm that's damaging to your community and everyone around you - that's damaging to yourself, you're going to get yourself caught, you're going to get yourself in trouble.
Jaiden: Yeah, mmhmm. 'Cause you're endangering yourself and like endangering your community by like-like building this huge ass platform.
Kourtney: Yeah, it's a slippery slope being on social media. It really is. It's like, you can get off, but like the isolation of not being on social media right now is so hard. And just like feeling like you're being left out of so much- we're like evolving so rapidly-sometimes I feel like if I get off instagram for a month, like I’m not going to be smart enough anymore. You know what I mean, like I'm not going to be able to keep up. They're not going to let me back in.
Lyrica: Yeah, I regularly delete the apps. But I feel like now I download it just to be like, ok I gotta check in, like see what's going on, see who got called out, like you know see like the new-I don't know what the new thing is, which I think kind of goes back to what you were saying Kourtney about reactive things, like everything being reactive, but I feel like we should be able to take a week off social media and still know what's going on and like feel welcomed like Jaiden was saying.
Kourtney: I feel like it used to be like that too, not anymore though. Sorry my cats are attacking each other.
